Years ago, I read an anecdote that shows once more it takes all kinds to make this world. A woman moved to the United States from a South American country and was so glad that she didn't have to stop and chat for 10 minutes with everyone she met on her way.
Absolutely, George, and from region to region! I’m thinking now of a classic cartoon that depicts two people passing on the streets in NYC and LA. In both scenes there is a shared word balloon and a shared thought bubble. The New Yorkers are both saying “F*** you!” but both thinking “Have a nice day!” And of course the LA residents are both saying “Have a nice day!” but both thinking “F*** you!”
Though that's from the opposite side, where default-Americans are considered *too* friendly! Compared to eastern Europeans, anyway.
My experience after many years in tech: I haven't really clashed with co-workers from India, perhaps because my midwest-friendly matches tone with them pretty easily. My bigger surprise was when I worked with an Israeli office. It was impossible for me, and several of my American coworkers, to get used to "The only proper way to make a decision is through a knock-down, drag-out argument. If a decision is made *without* someone shouting, it probably wasn't actually resolved." I found those extremely uncomfortable. The Israeli's themselves made fun of it, as a cultural trait. Dealing with the Moscow office was a lighter version of the same thing.
Fascinating, Brian! I wonder how to reconcile the finding that “corruption at the societal level may weaken the meaning of an evolutionary important signal such as smiling” with the “sweetness” of Latin American cultures where corruption levels are not low. The finding about “how hierarchical or masculine a culture is” also seems counterintuitive (machismo anyone?).
Yeah, the uncertainty avoidance thing is probably only one factor. It "makes sense" that it would be a factor, but I can't imagine that it's the only substantial one. There are even famous differences just between large American cities. NYC has a reputation for grouchiness, and Chicago mostly doesn't, but I can't really see that NYC has a more substantial reputation for uncertainty or corruption.
A guess: I think there's a lot of evidence that placed get culturally "set in their ways". So a place that develops a particular "attitude", transfers that same attitude far into the future, even when the original conditions that created the attitude are long gone. So we may be seeing some of these things based on conditions decades, or even centuries, ago.
"Though that's from the opposite side, where default-Americans are considered *too* friendly! Compared to eastern Europeans, anyway."
I remember hearing a piece on NPR a few years ago whose subtitle might as well have been "the dark side of positive attitudes"; as I remember it, the gist was that, say, a Russian moves to America, and (certainly if he works in customer service in America--retail, waiting tables, or the like) has to assimilate to American culture's strong presumption or norm of smiling--if he's not smiling at the customers, it's taken as positively being rude to them or mistreating them. But then he has real mental-health complications deriving from the strain of always having to fake happiness and friendliness.
I can see it. On the other hand, I can see an argument that the employee in the clothing store in the Midwest is actually being kinder (not to say, more charitable?) than the unsmiling statue who works in a French clothing store.
Meanwhile possibly the same piece described an immigrant in America who ends up in a conversation with a(n American) stranger while waiting for the bus, and the American is shockingly frank, talking openly about his divorce, etc. The immigrant adjusts to this and is able to enjoy a real two-way conversation, but then is disappointed and hurt when the bus arrives and the American goes and sits down without him; only then does the non-American realize that he hasn't made a new close friend, but rather this is how that American would interact with any stranger.
So ironically, in a way, American cultural norms of being more outgoing/open/friendly can actually be more isolating, closed off, lonely.
tl;dr: Arguably different cultures have their good points and bad points, and/or none of them are inherently better or worse but rather are arbitrary, all a matter of convention. In some ways I do tend to think of American culture as an improvement on the alternatives; but then, I'm probably biased.
Many years ago I went grocery shopping with an Asian student in a US town. She started haggling with the produce guy over the price of a watermelon. Differences are fun...
I find your experiences with people of other cultures enlightening, and even somewhat amazing. I knew Spanish culture to be more gentle than ours. Even their language is gentler. Your insight into Indian culture is entirely new to me, and makes me want to learn more about more cultures. But one thing you wrote about upset me: kids and their desire for one sentence texts!
Multiple sentences means punctuation, and punctionation presents tonal problems! Also kids very quickly hit the “impenetrable wall of text” barrier. Communication for them is fast, efficient, and brief.
Thank you, Benjamin! I’m a little outside my comfort zone offering observations without a conclusion to draw from them. Of course, I think it’s important to step outside one’s comfort zone…
I worked in a similar context some years ago (remotely connected in live meetings with people from India among other places on a regular basis). What I remember was sort of an opposite example: The Indian co-workers--though it might have been mainly just one guy--were much more organized in meetings. I remember this one guy impressed me as always using the high-school-essay formula, in live verbal speech, when it was his turn to speak to everyone on the call: He would give an introduction in which he would say _These are the three points I'm about to make,_ then he would actually male his three points, and then he would summarize the three points he had just made. I think it was effective. And again, more intentionally organized and to-the-point than anything the Americans on the call ever said.
I suppose the country that accounts for about a sixth of the world's population can contain many different cultures. Also, one could speculate that what I was observing was not an underlying difference of (an) Indian culture as opposed to Western culture, but rather something specifically absorbed from English culture into Indian culture sometime in the couple of centuries prior.
Years ago, I read an anecdote that shows once more it takes all kinds to make this world. A woman moved to the United States from a South American country and was so glad that she didn't have to stop and chat for 10 minutes with everyone she met on her way.
Amazing counterpoint! Thanks for that, Kathleen!
Even within America, one might observe some degree of a similar difference between the culture of small towns and the culture of the cities?
Absolutely, George, and from region to region! I’m thinking now of a classic cartoon that depicts two people passing on the streets in NYC and LA. In both scenes there is a shared word balloon and a shared thought bubble. The New Yorkers are both saying “F*** you!” but both thinking “Have a nice day!” And of course the LA residents are both saying “Have a nice day!” but both thinking “F*** you!”
Reminds me of this interesting article about cultural differences between nationalities: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/culture-and-smiling/483827/
Though that's from the opposite side, where default-Americans are considered *too* friendly! Compared to eastern Europeans, anyway.
My experience after many years in tech: I haven't really clashed with co-workers from India, perhaps because my midwest-friendly matches tone with them pretty easily. My bigger surprise was when I worked with an Israeli office. It was impossible for me, and several of my American coworkers, to get used to "The only proper way to make a decision is through a knock-down, drag-out argument. If a decision is made *without* someone shouting, it probably wasn't actually resolved." I found those extremely uncomfortable. The Israeli's themselves made fun of it, as a cultural trait. Dealing with the Moscow office was a lighter version of the same thing.
Fascinating, Brian! I wonder how to reconcile the finding that “corruption at the societal level may weaken the meaning of an evolutionary important signal such as smiling” with the “sweetness” of Latin American cultures where corruption levels are not low. The finding about “how hierarchical or masculine a culture is” also seems counterintuitive (machismo anyone?).
Yeah, the uncertainty avoidance thing is probably only one factor. It "makes sense" that it would be a factor, but I can't imagine that it's the only substantial one. There are even famous differences just between large American cities. NYC has a reputation for grouchiness, and Chicago mostly doesn't, but I can't really see that NYC has a more substantial reputation for uncertainty or corruption.
A guess: I think there's a lot of evidence that placed get culturally "set in their ways". So a place that develops a particular "attitude", transfers that same attitude far into the future, even when the original conditions that created the attitude are long gone. So we may be seeing some of these things based on conditions decades, or even centuries, ago.
"Though that's from the opposite side, where default-Americans are considered *too* friendly! Compared to eastern Europeans, anyway."
I remember hearing a piece on NPR a few years ago whose subtitle might as well have been "the dark side of positive attitudes"; as I remember it, the gist was that, say, a Russian moves to America, and (certainly if he works in customer service in America--retail, waiting tables, or the like) has to assimilate to American culture's strong presumption or norm of smiling--if he's not smiling at the customers, it's taken as positively being rude to them or mistreating them. But then he has real mental-health complications deriving from the strain of always having to fake happiness and friendliness.
I can see it. On the other hand, I can see an argument that the employee in the clothing store in the Midwest is actually being kinder (not to say, more charitable?) than the unsmiling statue who works in a French clothing store.
Meanwhile possibly the same piece described an immigrant in America who ends up in a conversation with a(n American) stranger while waiting for the bus, and the American is shockingly frank, talking openly about his divorce, etc. The immigrant adjusts to this and is able to enjoy a real two-way conversation, but then is disappointed and hurt when the bus arrives and the American goes and sits down without him; only then does the non-American realize that he hasn't made a new close friend, but rather this is how that American would interact with any stranger.
So ironically, in a way, American cultural norms of being more outgoing/open/friendly can actually be more isolating, closed off, lonely.
tl;dr: Arguably different cultures have their good points and bad points, and/or none of them are inherently better or worse but rather are arbitrary, all a matter of convention. In some ways I do tend to think of American culture as an improvement on the alternatives; but then, I'm probably biased.
Many years ago I went grocery shopping with an Asian student in a US town. She started haggling with the produce guy over the price of a watermelon. Differences are fun...
How did that work out for her??
Let's just say the Kroger guy didn't quite know how to respond...
Ha! I wonder if she ever had the opportunity to visit a farmer’s market. :-)
I find your experiences with people of other cultures enlightening, and even somewhat amazing. I knew Spanish culture to be more gentle than ours. Even their language is gentler. Your insight into Indian culture is entirely new to me, and makes me want to learn more about more cultures. But one thing you wrote about upset me: kids and their desire for one sentence texts!
Multiple sentences means punctuation, and punctionation presents tonal problems! Also kids very quickly hit the “impenetrable wall of text” barrier. Communication for them is fast, efficient, and brief.
An especially fine and thoughtful installment, Steven, thank you!
Thank you, Benjamin! I’m a little outside my comfort zone offering observations without a conclusion to draw from them. Of course, I think it’s important to step outside one’s comfort zone…
Re OP:
I worked in a similar context some years ago (remotely connected in live meetings with people from India among other places on a regular basis). What I remember was sort of an opposite example: The Indian co-workers--though it might have been mainly just one guy--were much more organized in meetings. I remember this one guy impressed me as always using the high-school-essay formula, in live verbal speech, when it was his turn to speak to everyone on the call: He would give an introduction in which he would say _These are the three points I'm about to make,_ then he would actually male his three points, and then he would summarize the three points he had just made. I think it was effective. And again, more intentionally organized and to-the-point than anything the Americans on the call ever said.
I suppose the country that accounts for about a sixth of the world's population can contain many different cultures. Also, one could speculate that what I was observing was not an underlying difference of (an) Indian culture as opposed to Western culture, but rather something specifically absorbed from English culture into Indian culture sometime in the couple of centuries prior.